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Vladimir wrote:

>Can one even hope to conceptualize any useful stacks of the first kind? 
>That's just a mess of communicating individuals.  Only math and software 
>coming out of this mess are real.  [Wow, I'll call this platonism of the 
>3rd millenium!]

Or possibly, to quote Wittgenstein, "meaning is use". The software "coming
out of this mess" indicates the meaning of the language by actually using
it...

I'm sorry I can't provide any Wittgenstein quotes regarding turtles.

James Walford

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